Thursday, July 16, 2009

The God of the Creationists is cruel

This is from a recent debate that I had with a creationist named "Wesley".

>>> Wesley:
>>> believe in a creative God, an all powerful God, and
>>> a just, but merciful God.

>> Me:
>> Then you are logically forced to believe in evolution.
>> Creationism is logically incompatible with a God who
>> is not deceptive.

>> Creationism also demands a God who is cruel and not very
>> competent.

>> It's the sort of logical contradiction that one would
>> see if someone was being physically abused by their spours
>> every day but but then said, "My spouse is kind and gentle".

>> **IF** their spouse physically abuses them every day
>> then their spouse is NOT "kind and gentle". That is
>> a logical necessity.

>> Similarly if Biblical creationism is true, then God is
>> cruel, deceptive and not very competent. That is also a
>> logical necessity.

> Wesley:
> Ok, when God first made the world it was perfect,
> no death, no sin. When WE the humans messed it up sin
> entered the world.

Darn. If I've heard that old argument once, I've heardit a thousand times.
It doesn't stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

> God can't be in the presence of sin, he is holy.
> Because of that, after a while the earth became to
> evil for God. He destroyed all that he had made,
> but being a merciful God he spared the only man and
> his family who followed God.


Just one example; more than 60% of all species areparasites. Parasites, more often than not, causepain and suffering in their hosts.

Supposedly these parasites are simply things that micro-evolved from "perfect" living things that lived in the Garden of Eden.


But that is impossible.

Consider my favorite example; the heartworm.

It causes pain and suffering in animals, particularlydogs - who can certainly feel that pain and suffering.
But it is transported from host to host by yet another parasite - a mosquito.

What, even conceptually, was that "perfect" living thingliving in the Garden of Eden that "micro-evolved" into a heartworm?

Such a thing is beyond anyone's imagination.

Therefore it never existed.

There are many, many other examples among the parasitesthat are IMPOSSIBLE to explain.

**IF** "micro-evolution" didn't create these things from life forms in the Garden of Eden and **IF** "macro-evolution" isn't possible then the ONLY possibility left is that God specifically created these parasites to inflict pain and suffering.

Such a being is cruel.

Therefore, if you are a creationist and accept the story of the Garden of Eden but deny "macro-evolution" thenyou are FORCED to accept a cruel God.


> Noah and his family then built an ark God brought to
> them every kind of land animal. They then endured the
> flood...

And then God destroyed all evidence that such a floodhad occurred.

And while killing all humans except for Noah and his family he undoubtedly killed small, innocent children and even unborn babies.

Therefore if the flood account is true, God is cruel AND deceptive.


> ...and after that the ice age.

There is evidence of at least a half-dozen Ice Ages. God created this evidence of additional Ice Ages to fool humans.

Therefore God is deceptive.


> God made a covanent with Abraham, the first but the
> promise of a second covenant in which things would
> change.

God ordered Abraham to bind and nearly sacrifice his own son. Presumably he did so to test Abraham's faith.But God, being all-knowing, already must have known Abraham's faith.

Therefore God is cruel.


> After the endless wars...

During which God ordered the murder and rape of men,womenn and children.

Therefore the God of the Bible is cruel.


> God sent his son Jesus who dies on the cross for us.

That must be a different God than the one in the OT.

> Making ALL people able to have eternal life.

Which is probably a terrible fate that no one could possibly stand.

> He is just and merciful and competent.

Only if you are not a creationist.

If you ARE a creationist, then God is cruel, deceptive and not very competent.

God could have proven evolution to be false by creating a single organism that evolution could not have produced. For example, God could have created a chimera such as a mermaid or a centaur. Humans, in their imaginations, design all sorts of such creatures. Yet evolution could not possibly explain them. Instead God "created" only organisms that CAN be explained by evolution. Therefore God is deceptive.


God over-designed nature. Based on the huge number of extinct fossils, where was originally at least 10X (and probably more like 1000X) redundancy in nature. No competent human engineers need so much redundancy.Therefore God is not very competent.


> Really we have no right to question God because he
> made us...

Maybe not.

But you have the right to use your God-given brain.

Besides we are not questioning God at all!!! We're actually just questioning the Bible.

The Bible and God are different things.

The Bible is a book.

God is a supernatural being.

They are NOT the same thing.

> ...our "logic" is not supperior to God.

Irrelevant comment noted.

Cop out noted.

We, as humans, are merely questioning another productof humans - the Bible.

That is utterly and completely appropriate.

If the obvious conclusion is correct - that a beliefi n a literal Bible is only logical consistent with a God who is cruel, deceptive and not very competent -then anyone who continues to insist that the Bible is literally true is actually promoting an anti-God belief system.

> He made us with logic, and everything else.

Which is all the more reason why we should use it. You are effectively claiming that God gave us this gift - the ability to think logically - but He then demands that we don't use it all of the time.

That, by itself, makes God cruel and deceptive.

> Why God lets things happen I don't know...

Because you don't allow yourself to think and use the logical skills that God gave you.

You would prefer to turn off your brain and mindlessly believe.

> ...but I do know that he has all things in his hands
> and is in control. I trust him with that.

God doesn't have anything to do with it.

The problem is that you mindlessly accept the Bible.

The Bible is a human created book.

You don't even have faith. You're looking for "proof" that God exists through that inerrant Bible. If a real flaw is found with that Bible, do you continue to believe in God?

If not, you don't really have faith.

And you really worship the Bible rather than God.

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